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Sort of new idea....

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  • Sort of new idea....

    Alright, we all know that Eric has a blown SC2, the one on Ian's site.
    I've been planning on going Supercharged for the past few months now, but a lightning bolt just struck my tiny little brain and made it grow temporarily.
    Here's the idea.

    Roots blowers don't really compress air much, they just pick it up and move it.... point taken, it's more efficient than a stock intake.

    Centrifugal blowers compress air much like a turbo...... point taken, adds more boost.

    Now combine them. I'm looking into the idea further as I move along here, the thing is, talking to people who can fabricate that manifold setup well..... I think I have to get ahold of Ian for this one.

    Anyways, putting these 2 together, would make a supercharged system so efficient, I'm looking at over 250whp on probably 8-10 psi, guesstimated, because the flow will be so much more efficient than just a centrifugal supercharger, which is what I had planned originally, as well as the 70mm TB that will go on there.

    Anyone have any comments on this? BESIDES the smartass remarks, I want ACTUAL comments / concerns plz. Keep the BS to a minimum.

  • #2
    2 belt dependant air compressors. Sadly I don't think that setup would be that efficient.

    Roots blowers on avg take 20% and give 40%, or so I have heard. Not comfirmed by me anyhow. I'm not sure what the efficiency of the centrifugal but something decent. It just seems impractical and a clutter of the engine bay. You lose more than you stand to gain from it. Why not just turbo it and be done with it. You will spend at least as much if not more attempting to work this setup compared to a turbo.

    If you want to throw your money at a lost cause go for it. Otherwise it wouldn't be called 'Tuning a Saturn' b/c we all know they are lost causes. lol.



    • #3
      honestly, Don't you think that MAYBE..... JUST MAYBE that if it was such a grand idea you would see someone who has done it? You would have to figure out a crazy belt configuration, yes their are twin charged engines, Turbo and Super....

      that is a lot of accessory loss due to 2 superchargers..... not to mention the powerband would look something similar to the mcdonalds arches.... you would need a good recirculation setup or you would just tear up the internals of the superchargers.....

      Tuning would be a nightmare, space is another constraint, you would have to get rid of the ac for the cent. and the Power steering for the Roots.... all for your 10psi.... when you could use a smaller single turbo that you could actually match to the engine to make some decent driveable power....

      you would have such a mess of piping and belts and everything else i really dont think it would be worth the time to even attempt.... I am not doubting your skills..... but stick with what works......


      • #4
        and PS...... if roots blowers didnt compress they would be as useful as a tornado intake mod..... roots blowers compress in the intake manifold..... hence why you still have boost......


        • #5
          I hate P/S and A/C. That's one reason. Another, is I'm taking the setups from both Eric's car, and SDA's car, and combining them into one. I'm lightening the entire rotating assembly, flywheel, crankshaft, and internals. I'm having custom work done to everything, so it's strong and lightweight.... if I go through with this. If not, I'll just be going with the centrifugal for now..... depends on how much money I get over the winter, which, if I do my work right, and get my bonuses for it (guaranteed for my efforts.... in writing) I should have at LEAST $8000 to work with.


          • #6
            you wont go through with it.... im pretty much willing to put money on it......
            You are having all this "Custom" work done to it..... ok...... and if you spend 8 grand in the engine i feel bad for you..... I really do..... the people who make the most power and have the best setups arent the ones who blow a bunch of money on parts.... they take the time to research what works.....

            I would love to see the setup work, I really would, and from what i hear you know a saturn inside and out and can put on together in 2 days...... well with that knowledge that the army has taught you, maybe you would pick up on the fact that simplicity works.....


            • #7
              The military teaches K.I.S.S. I don't need to spell it out, you know what I'm saying. I would be interested to see it but sadly you are still going to be losing more than you stand to gain even if you lost PS and A/C. I don't think you are going to make nearly as much as a properly sized and tuned turbo or SINGLE centrifugal s/c setup. Do what you want though, if I had 8g's I would have the Ion finished, BUT the goddamn AF did away with bonuses for jet engine mechanics. We are too fat, maybe when they start downsizing they will give back some of the incentives to stay in. Oh well.



              • #8
                well..... you're right about the military teaching K.I.S.S Tim..... but..... I had an instructor who has 2 cars..... a 70 Chevelle SS, and a 96 DelSol Vtec......
                He's put money into both of them.
                He not only taught me K.I.S.S, but more on the side, as I was his top student, and told him my plans. I'm trying to get in touch with him, but he's in the sandbox at the moment.

                OK, I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, don't care, but this is going to be hella-long, so bare with me.....

                Anyways, I'm going to try the setup if I get the money.
                I don't know at the moment, seems far fetched, I'd have to get pricing done first, I'll check that starting monday, but I get my best ideas at night when nobody is around to tell me I'm a stupid shit. There's a guy here in Michigan who has a twin-turbo setup, but that's completely different from what I'm doing.....
                Although, I see where you're coming from with the belt-driven madness, and I'm contemplating now on a log manifold with a t3/t4 running 10psi.... maybe more, because tuning would be a bitch anyways, so why not go with less belt power, and possibly keep A/C, but that's up in the air. I don't know, maybe it's all the ringing in my ears from the Crossfade concert the other night?

                I'll probably go this route.......

                Eaton Blower from 3.8GM, t3/t4 garret external wastegate, manual boost controller, some huge fucking intercooler 3'' core thickness, 2.5'' hot piping, 3'' cold piping, 2 bar MAP sensor, smaller billet pullies all around (option questionable at most), 70mm TB, 3'' downpipe and exhaust, quaife diff, stronger valvetrain with higher flow / duration, 8.5:1 comp race LW forged pistons, CUSTOM race LW forged rods, CUSTOM crankshaft ( de-stroking possible...... definite gains there.......), of course, radiator will be replaced with welded aluminum..... prolly some summit universal, gut the thermostat to full open, Custom Guage clusterfuk, FUK IT, forget the fuel and spark control...... Haltech here I come (might as well if I'm spending this much so far?!), qksltwo race cams or some custom made cams with more lift and duration, billet steel lw flywheel for strength (aluminum ones have been rumored to break at 350+ HP, not sure on that, but for reliability, what the hell?), big-ass high-CFM cooling fans, battery relocation to trunk or back-seat burst-proof casing, custom fab aluminum frame seating (I can easily do that when I get my welder), the car is going to lose some weight, I'm a pro at that.

                Dash is going to be custom made from kevlar fiber to fit stock mountings, but will not look anything like stock due to the number of guages going there. There will be a passenger seat for ride-alongs (I WILL GIVE FREE RIDES...... I'm good like that [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif[/img] )

                As far as suspension and braking go, I'm doing that all out. The more power you have, the more control you need to stop and turn safely, so I'm going to kick-down on that FIRST.

                Wheels will NOT be stock... will require 17's for braking system, body will be stock, with crank windows, with re-enforced door construction, custom made roll bars, Scatter shield under powertrain assembly (required at most tracks,) and FINALLY....... an ASSLOAD of tuning.

                IF, and this is a BIG IF I go with this setup, I'm going to need some help doing it, and it won't be done for at least 5-6 months. Just in time for Summer, so I can go embarass the V8 trailer queens at the track and local race scene.

                Oh yes...... it will be street legal, with DOT approved slicks on the front, and some excellent street tires in the back (not good to have slicks in the back..... no point in it.... duh)

                Go ahead..... Flame me..... don't give a shit...... it's a late night idea.

                Who thinks this will work? Better than the 2 S/C idea.


                • #9
                  IF big IF here, if you do it it will take you 2+ then you will have either changed your mind about alot of that stuff or given up and let the car sit half apart in your driveway, or not even own a saturn
                  Fucking Pringle bastards.


                  • #10
                    You're right, it's going to take longer than 5-6 months, but I will have it done before the end of summer '07. I know my way around a shop, and I have access to one. Besides, I have nothing better to do on my off-time, which I have a lot of. And when it comes to working on a car, I never get bored as long as I have enough beer and smokes (That's right, typical Flint, MI mechanic for ya.... heheh [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/wink.gif[/img] )

                    I have a few friends around here willing to help me with my setup already, as long as I cut them in on some beer and a few bux here an there, but more help is welcome.
                    I have the paint taken care of, I have the body/frame work taken care of, tires/rims taken care of, parts connections all over the place (but everyone could use more.....)

                    The only thing I need help with, is someone experienced in tuning. I know I want my AFR to be around 13.5 across the board..... that's giving it a little richness, without leaning it out, or making it too rich.
                    I'll definitely be relocating the oil filter to the fire-wall for easy changes, so as I don't have to go through the hell of removing a big ass wheel everytime, along with running a hood-mounted oil cooler right near it, with a scoop and fan, which I already have lined up.

                    As far as audio, I'm going to be getting in touch with Justin, and give him hell...... this will be unique, but not insanely loud, just enough to hear it over the engine, crisp and clear sound with a little "thud" to it.

                    I'm getting more and more ideas by the minute, and it's all coming together in my head so easily.

                    Right now, I'm estimating the setup to cost around 8-10k. If I can get my money right, I should have it done around July/August next year given my area and the cost of heating/electric going up.

                    Anyways, what do you think of the setup...... I know it sounds far-fetched...... but will this do the trick?


                    • #11
                      ever heard the expression "he bit off more than he can chew"???
                      nuff said

                      10 grand says it wont be done in 07
                      Fucking Pringle bastards.


                      • #12
                        I won't take that bet of course..... I'm crazy, not stupid.
                        Well, even if I am wrong, it will still be a fun little ride...... I may even take the option of the blower and throw it out the window, and just get Ian's 3'' manifold instead, but that all depends on what some of the Veterans tell me would work better. Most likely, they'll say fuck the blower, which is what I'm expecting, which will take about $4k off of my cost.


                        • #13
                          07 Redline w/ stuff.<br /><br />89 Civic hatch w/o stuff.<br /><br />96 SL2 that dont need stuff.


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by project92SC2
                            I hate P/S and A/C. That's one reason. Another, is I'm taking the setups from both Eric's car, and SDA's car, and combining them into one. I'm lightening the entire rotating assembly, flywheel, crankshaft, and internals. I'm having custom work done to everything, so it's strong and lightweight.... if I go through with this. If not, I'll just be going with the centrifugal for now..... depends on how much money I get over the winter, which, if I do my work right, and get my bonuses for it (guaranteed for my efforts.... in writing) I should have at LEAST $8000 to work with.
                            hahaha how much money do you have. good luck. you are talking complete fabercation of almost everything. ohhh and you are talking about haveing someone else do it for you. that cost a lot of money in labor alone.
                            2007 chevy classic 2500hd 4x4 duramax
                            1996 383 lt1 auto trans am
                            1995 sl1. single cam of fury
                            1995 jeep wrangler lifted 4x4 4.0
                            1995 ford explorer 4x4


                            • #15
                              project: kudos on trying to do something different to begin with, but you just flipped around and said you were thinking about doing a turbo setup. You seem a bit indecisive on what you want to do. Thats okay though...I am too. I've gone thru about 10 different build scheme's for the Ion. You must know that some centrifugal S/c's are almost as efficient as a Turbo. Meaning pressure and airflow, but it still requires belt power. I'd like to see a centrifugal on an S-car. Hell I'd like to see one on an Ion. (Yes I know there are kits out for the Ion but I don't have the money to even consider one)

                              Do what you want to. Why don't you learn how to tune it yourself? Everyone of these ECU's come with an instruction booklet. Do it yourself and stand to gain something instead of a load of shit from everyone here. I'm going to try tune my SDS myself, or at least try. Just once you start building and accumulating parts beware of changing your build idea too much or you will be ASSOUT on alot of money. I learned that the hardway.



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