2.2L Ecotec Questions

[Red4Coupe]

I have been trying to find a way around this problem for a few months now and to no avail. I am running the 2.2L Eco on an '05 Ion. Now many of you know that the 05's have the MAF Sensor on it. I have yet to find a way to cirvumvent this minor problem. My goal is to get rid of the fucker as soon as possible, however the ECM won't like that.

Is there a possiblity of running an 03 or 04 ECM (the ones that don't have the MAF) and just getting a new wiring harness to account for the lack of the one sensor. Or can I dyke off the wiring for the MAF and rewire an 03/04 Plug into the current harness and let her ride that way with the new 03/04 ECM.

Next step: If I can't do either of these, do you think I could swap in an 03/04 Engine (you know...the one with the PwrSteering Pump/reservoir attached to the head) along with the wiring harness, ECM and such.

If I do this, I was considering the distributor swap that MSD offers. Anyone have an idea on how much of a pain in the ass that would be to tune and make function? If not I'll just swap heads.

I know...this seems like a buttload of work for something that seems so simple. Can anyone assist me.

Tim

[TheMU47]

I couldn't depict why you were trying to get rid of the MAF sensor.

[Red4Coupe]

I'm sorry. I should have posted the whole deal. I am working on a 2.2L Ecotec turbo build. And I'm having some problems figuring out how to make it function with the current 2.2L Ecotec ECM. Most people would say, get a standalone, but apparently the ECM and BCM (body control module) talk to each other with certain signals, if the ECM isnt there the BCM nuts the fuck up.

Well I'm trying to find a way around the MAF and my initial idea was a standalone. Well Vinnie informed me of the situation in the above paragraph and I got to thinking. Most of the turbo kits for the Ions out now are for the 03 - 04 Ions thus making them inoperable on the 05+ models due to the MAF. You all know about the MAFs reading too much air and causing the motor to go into a frenzy of coughing and sputtering.

My ideas were to utilize the 03 - 04 ECM + harness to be able to phase out the MAF and JUST use the MAP sensing that is in the programming. As far as I know, I'm not sure if it will work. I don't know if the 03 - 04 ECM will function with the 05 BCM (i have all of the damn power options too and cruise)

Next step would be...as I'm building a boosted motor...to just swap in the 03 - 04 engine and hopefully alleviate the problem.

Now the 03 - 04 engine comes with a power steering pump on the head that is powered by the cams (I think, I might be wrong). MSD has a setup that replaces the pump with a distributor + wires + capacitor, it also requires a fuel management provided my Accel DFI or something else. I was curious how effective this setup was as the GM race motors has it on them. Was also curious about how much of an asspain it was to tune them with this setup.

Tim

[slowion2]

power steering in the 03-04 is electronic assist, not powered by teh engine at all. so, you could possibly assume, that you could run the cap & rotor conversion without losing your power steering as well. wouldnt' that be great? LOL

I don't know for sure how bad the BCM will wig out with lack of an ECM or certain signals. I was using the problem with the ignition switch as an example of how it's logic works.

something to consider, as one of our guys here in orlando tried it in a redline:

we took an 04 redline, and flashed teh ecu with an 05 redline flash. the ECM and BCM did communicate with each other, and the car did run fine, without an engine light as well. HOWEVER, when hooked up to a TechII, it prompted something about the VIN numbers not matching up properly, and asked for the proper VIN to be input and flashed in via the passthru. scared of the possible problems, we only tested this short term, but I plan to try something similar with a second ECM in my Ion, whenever I get it back.

[Red4Coupe]

Question: Are the 04 and 05 RL engines the same sensor wise? According to Saturnparts.net you can order the ECU from a 04 - 05 Year RL and they are the same part. Leads me to believe so that part of the argument is null man.
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/ ... atalogid=1

You know this part Vin. On the other hand the 04 QC has only the MAP sensor(s) whereas the 05 QC has the MAP + MAF for more precise airflow reads. I'm worried about the MAF wiring within the harness and the additional pin that the 05 may(may not) have in the plug that goes into the ECM. I'm reasonably sure that the BCM harness that hooks to the ECM is the same on all of the Ion's.

So the ECM + Engine Harness swap just may work, I just need a donor to test my theory, as stock ECM's are an ASSRAPING amount. $476.96 new. Did Chris have an 05 or 04? Was wondering if he might be able to donate the ECM and Harness for it. I would be willing to send some $$$ his way for the help.

My next curiousity, if I can get this rolling, would be to figure out how to manage my fuel without interrupting the ECM's modus operandi. Everything 'airflow' is now being handled by the ECM. Would I just need to get a piggy back to control fuel and an ignition module to work spark advance/retard.

Yes the distributor would be sweet but in theory, I have no fucking clue how to tune that. Any ideas on how that would function with a standalone ECU.

Tim

[sl2wycked]

probably CAN 2.0 huh? its like a serial data connection. i remember on mischief 5 when covering the peter farrel supercars is300 they said that they came up with a way to keep the ecu happy and connected while hijacking the fuel and ignition for a tec3r. or could you just cut fuel and spark controls away and live with an ses or something?

[Red4Coupe]

I don't think you can do that. It doesn't like it when you take away fuel from the stock ECU. At least with the Saturn OBD2CAN

Maybe I'm looking at this from too much of a standalone view, instead of working with the simple shit. I may be able to swap in a MAF from a LS1 or something that flows more air with a similar tube MAF. I don't think my turbo application will flow more air than an LS1 honestly. All that would require is jury rigging a plug and wiring it up then integrating it in the system.

Also found out that the 03-04 Ion's REALLY DO have a MAF. It's actually on the intake manifold rather than in the airflow. It's a diode type and is less sensitive and inversely so more accepting of higher airflow without throwing codes and acting like a fucktard when you throw more air at it.

Just some ideas and information I'm tossing around.

Tim

[sl2wycked]

well i mean i guess itll just think the car's sitting still with the key in "on" and a reeeeeally good battery charge wouldnt it?

[slowion2]

if the ecu is the same for 04 and 05, why not just remove the MAF and run an 04 ECU, or maybe leave it in (since the IAT is built into the MAF on that configuration) but it won't read the MAF signal since it won't need to.

that isn't a MAF on the intake manifold, it's a MAP. there is no MAF on the 03-04 engines. I can go check on the spare manifold I have out back, there's only one sensor on it, and it's the MAP.

an LS1 MAF is an idea to swap in, might even have the same connectors as well, we already share the same throttle body sensor connections as it is.

[Red4Coupe]

Okay, just to let all you Ecotec Tuners know. I disconnected my ECM to Engine Harness from the ECM. And she did exactly what I predicted.

-----------------
| ECM---BCM |
-----------------

The engine didn't turn over or anything. I knew it wouldn't but the guy that was watching me do it wanted to see it. However, all the interior equipment, the brake light, headlights and stereo worked. Now I haven't poured over the ECM pinouts to see what sensors will or won't feed the BCM information. I'm thinking that the speed sensor will possibly, most likely the "Drive-by-Wire" throttle assy will as well. (Getting changed out when I configure the Standalone setup)

Now understand that when you re-establish the connection and try to start the car, it will throw a code at you something to the effect of "WTF MATES?!?!?". The car WILL run like shit for the first start. Shut it off and let it sit for a few then restart it. CEL is still there but car runs good. Just the computer establishing a "safe mode". CEL should go away w/in the first 5 - 10 ignitions/drive cycles. Still need to clear the codes.

All this leads me to believe that we really can put a standalone ECU in the car. Just disco the ECM side of the brain box and re-establish the sensor connections with the standalone and you should be golden.

Dunno if I'm right or not but it's worth a shot. Vinnie correct me if I'm wrong.

Tim

[omgitselvisc]

Okay, just to let all you Ecotec Tuners know. I disconnected my ECM to Engine Harness from the ECM. And she did exactly what I predicted.

-----------------
| ECM---BCM |
-----------------

The engine didn't turn over or anything. I knew it wouldn't but the guy that was watching me do it wanted to see it. However, all the interior equipment, the brake light, headlights and stereo worked. Now I haven't poured over the ECM pinouts to see what sensors will or won't feed the BCM information. I'm thinking that the speed sensor will possibly, most likely the "Drive-by-Wire" throttle assy will as well. (Getting changed out when I configure the Standalone setup)

Now understand that when you re-establish the connection and try to start the car, it will throw a code at you something to the effect of "WTF MATES?!?!?". The car WILL run like shit for the first start. Shut it off and let it sit for a few then restart it. CEL is still there but car runs good. Just the computer establishing a "safe mode". CEL should go away w/in the first 5 - 10 ignitions/drive cycles. Still need to clear the codes.

All this leads me to believe that we really can put a standalone ECU in the car. Just disco the ECM side of the brain box and re-establish the sensor connections with the standalone and you should be golden.

Dunno if I'm right or not but it's worth a shot. Vinnie correct me if I'm wrong.

Tim

oh man 05's sound like they suck lol

the only prob with the standalone i can see is the whole "Drive By Wire" thing. I know that MS2 has something working for that i believe, i saw it on msefi.com

but i have an 04 ion and i'm actually installing my standlone "MS1v3" to control my fuel but not spark.

The same sensors will be there but i'll doubling up the IAT and CLT sensors so the ecu wont freak out and pull timing.

But my idea later on this summer is to get that ecotec distributer and hook it up to the MS and then make my ignition table.

this is all theory and I'm hoping it'll work but time will tell

[Red4Coupe]

I'm prollly going to use the SDS EM4-4F for my Fuel and Spark Needs...I'm thinking that the ECU portion disconnected will give me the proper results...ALL I need is for the body portion of the ECU to function properly. Thats it. I can rig up an ignition and fuel switches to elsewhere in the car. All my power functions work with the key in the ON setting and the ECU disconnected. The drive-by-wire will be circumvented with a TB from an 03 - 04 Ion, the wire and pedal. Since the stock ECU won't be reading the potentiometer readings of the D-B-W pedal I'm good, just swap in the new pedal and cable...plus the EM4-4f uses a TPS and the TB comes with a TPS.

Only thing I'm super concerned about is the fuel cut at 107mph. I'm hoping its on the ECU side and I eliminated it by unpluging the ECU. I have a feeling it has to do with several inputs from trans/speedo or something else.

Anyhow, will keep you updated.

Timm

[omgitselvisc]

I'm prollly going to use the SDS EM4-4F for my Fuel and Spark Needs...I'm thinking that the ECU portion disconnected will give me the proper results...ALL I need is for the body portion of the ECU to function properly. Thats it. I can rig up an ignition and fuel switches to elsewhere in the car. All my power functions work with the key in the ON setting and the ECU disconnected. The drive-by-wire will be circumvented with a TB from an 03 - 04 Ion, the wire and pedal. Since the stock ECU won't be reading the potentiometer readings of the D-B-W pedal I'm good, just swap in the new pedal and cable...plus the EM4-4f uses a TPS and the TB comes with a TPS.

Only thing I'm super concerned about is the fuel cut at 107mph. I'm hoping its on the ECU side and I eliminated it by unpluging the ECU. I have a feeling it has to do with several inputs from trans/speedo or something else.

Anyhow, will keep you updated.

Timm

well if you're controlling the spark + fuel there shouldnt be a rev / speed limiter anymore.

but yea megasquirt also requires a TPS so i dunno where you're going with on that one.

i would try to see if you can get the boost reflash before raping the car with a new tb and such.

and the new map sensor that goes with the boost flash.

[Red4Coupe]

I know you said that the S/C kit has a reflash. Where do you propose I get this reflash from. I surely can't walk to my local saturn dealer and ask for it. That would require me to purchase the kit and be out an even more substantial amount of money. If you know someone that can reflash the 05 ECU to see boost and read the proper airflow...by all means let me know, b/c I don't know of anyone that can do it for me.

My best bet would be to use an MS2 or the SDS. I don't see removing the D-B-W TB as raping. I merely see it as re-configuring. The D-B-W isn't all that accurate in the first place with really touchy response and little feedback to the driver as to how far the TB is really open.

Any help would be nice...thanks.

Tim

[omgitselvisc]

I know you said that the S/C kit has a reflash. Where do you propose I get this reflash from. I surely can't walk to my local saturn dealer and ask for it. That would require me to purchase the kit and be out an even more substantial amount of money. If you know someone that can reflash the 05 ECU to see boost and read the proper airflow...by all means let me know, b/c I don't know of anyone that can do it for me.

My best bet would be to use an MS2 or the SDS. I don't see removing the D-B-W TB as raping. I merely see it as re-configuring. The D-B-W isn't all that accurate in the first place with really touchy response and little feedback to the driver as to how far the TB is really open.

Any help would be nice...thanks.

Tim

lol i just prefer to try to keep the current setup and if neccessary then you can adjust it.

maybe i can see if i know anybody that could help you out, i'll talk to my buddies at the dealership to see what;s up.. maybe other people on the board could help you out more than me as well.

the sds is powerful but im more of a bang for your buck kind of guy so ms is cool and you learn so much with it. lol i basically preach about it.

i would see if you could make a buddy at your dealership and pay him on the side and maybe he could do something for ya.